LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, HOST:

President Trump's tough talk on immigration now comes with troops - up to 4,000 National Guard troops to protect the U.S. Mexico border, he says, from crime, from drugs, from illegal crossings and the caravans.

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: What I told Mexico very strongly - you're going to have to do something about these caravans that are coming.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Those caravans are made up of Central American migrants - many women and children traveling together through Mexico, fleeing violence in their home countries, some headed to the United States to seek asylum. But the Trump administration is not just tightening security at the border. It's trying to tighten U.S. asylum laws, too. And here's where we want to update you about a woman from El Salvador we've been following. She's already in the U.S. and seeking asylum. We're not using her name for her protection. Back in February, she was worried about being deported after she went to the wrong courthouse and missed her court hearing in front of the judge. Here she is on that day.

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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: (Speaking Spanish).

GARCIA-NAVARRO: She's saying there that she doesn't know what she's going to do. She was given 30 days to file a motion to reopen her case, but she had no lawyer and no money to pay for a lawyer, much like many asylum seekers here. Well, she does have a lawyer now. Nexus Services offers pro bono legal services to immigrants. And it took her case on after hearing about it on our show. We're joined now by Mike Donavon. He's the CEO of Nexus Services. Good morning.

MIKE DONOVAN: Good morning, Lulu. Happy to be here.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: So give us an update. What happened after our asylum seeker missed her court date in late February?

DONOVAN: Well, we had heard about this through your story and knew that in order to actually have her case reopened, she'd have to file a motion in front of the judge. So we actually offered to take her case pro bono, as we do. And we filed the necessary paperwork for the motion to reopen.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And so now she will have her day in court to consider her asylum case. That's the next step.

DONOVAN: That's exactly right. So the judge, upon receiving the motion, granted the motion to reopen. And now I want to be clear. While I think the judge for that, the reality is that most people can't do this if they're not represented. And it just leads to unnecessary deportations that put people's lives at risk. I mean, we have asylum for a reason in this country. There is a legitimate claim of relief for a reason. And when we deny people counsel, it's unconscionable.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: We should make clear here that the issue really is that in immigration courts, you are not required to have legal representation, and you're not offered legal representation as you are in a criminal court.

DONOVAN: That's exactly right. And I believe that's unconstitutional. Of course, the constitutional right to counsel engages when you are charged with a crime that can lead to your loss of liberty. The way the immigration system gets around this in these cases, Lulu, is to define the detention as civil instead of criminal. I have been on tours of immigration jails. I have clients who we've helped get out of immigration jails. And let me assure you that the only difference between civil jail and criminal jail is the use of the word civil to justify the affront to human rights that is denying counsel to these people.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Let's talk about the other side of this, though. Attorney General Jeff Sessions has made it one of his goals to eliminate what he has called rampant fraud and abuse in the asylum system. Here he is in a speech in October.

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JEFF SESSIONS: As this system becomes overloaded with fake claims, it cannot deal effectively with just claims. The surge in trials, hearings, appeals, bond proceedings have been overwhelming.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: He's saying that it's overwhelmed with fake claims, that lawyers are pushing the asylum system. Is there any merit to what he's saying?

DONOVAN: There is a broken immigration system but the idea that asylum claims are fraudulent is - I think that the number of asylum claims that could be considered fraudulent would be extraordinarily low. You know, perhaps the attorney general could be a little more liberal - (laughter) for sure - in understanding that the people that are filing these asylum claims are doing so without counsels. If they're making mistakes on how they file these things, it's because they don't have the training or the education or the legal assistance to do it.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, the attorney general argues our asylum laws are meant to protect people who fear returning home because of their race, religion, nationality or political opinions and that these laws were never intended for people who fear sort of generalized violence, crime, personal vendettas or lack of job prospects, which he says many of these asylum claims are based on.

DONOVAN: Well I think the attorney general should probably spend a little time in El Salvador, Honduras. And he would understand that the governments of those countries aren't really the governments of those countries. The governments of those countries are the gangs like the MS-13, which, by the way, was founded in the United States. You know, the people that are fleeing generalized violence, Lulu - they're fleeing the government or the de facto government. I wish that he would educate himself further about what's happening in these countries because I believe he's a man of integrity, and if he knew, I think that he would support giving counsel to these folks so that their filings can be more up to his standards, perhaps.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Sessions also says many asylum seekers disappear and never show up at their immigration hearings. Here's one stat Sessions cites. He says in 2016, there were 700 percent more removal orders issued in absentia for cases that began with a credible fear claim than in 2009.

DONOVAN: You know, I agree that's a huge problem. But I'm not quite sure that the federal government citing its own failure makes sense in trying to change a policy when the policy that currently exists is the government's failure in returning people to court. And the reason, Lulu, that the government fails in returning people to court is crystallized in the individual we're talking about right now. She had a master calendar hearing scheduled in February. And on the same day, her ICE officer scheduled a meeting with him - in two different buildings. That's a very confusing system. And, you know, if you make something confusing enough, sometimes, people just give up. There have to be ways that we can incentivize law firms and community groups to provide these important services. We have to understand that our broken immigration system is only going to become more broken if we don't help guide people through it.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Mike Donovan is the CEO of Nexus Services. Thank you very much.

DONOVAN: Thank you so much.

 

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