MR. TALBOTT: You made a very important point early on, and you make it in the book and in your other public events, and that is that you are making a real effort to talk to people who are in favor of our current president. Putting him aside, if that could be done, what are you learning about people who think that this is really the way to go and this is the leader that we want?

MS. ALBRIGHT: First of all, I kind of have, as a result of doing the book and learning a lot about the history of fascism, I do think that part of what one has to point out is it comes step by step. By the way, I learned a lot in doing the research for this book. Mussolini I think is obviously the first fascist and very fascinating man in terms of understanding the divisions in society, associating himself with a group against another group and being a very powerful speaker, thinking that he was a steady genius and that he had all the answers. I think the best quote in the book comes from Mussolini, and it is that if you pluck a chicken on feather at a time, nobody notices.

So there's a lot of feather plucking going on now. Those are two words that are hard to say quickly together. (Laughter) And so I think the issue is what is going on in terms of these small steps. So I think the issue from the perspective of the United States is that I don't think that people noticed enough the divisions that were going on in this country. A lot of them are economic, there's no question.

And to go back on the technology issue -- and I must say I think this is an audience of people that writes books and reads books, and the research for doing books is really -- I mean I learned more when I don't write about myself. So I think that I learned a lot through this. And what is evident is that we have gone through a period like the industrial revolution with the addition of media that spreads the story very quickly, but there are huge divisions that we're not taking care of.

And I think that when I've gone around to talk to people they really do see that there is an elite group in the United States, that there are people that don't have jobs. And this is the part that really does worry me, if you have a leader who then blames it on somebody else -- because part of the whole fascist aspect is you always have to find a scapegoat. That is one of the things that happened both in Italy, but especially in Germany. And so you need to find somebody whose fault it is. And how what Trump has been doing is portraying America as a victim.

I think, Strobe, when you and I were in office with President Clinton we never thought of ourselves as victims, we were the leaders that really were able to work with others and understood -- by the way, the indispensable nation thing, President Clinton said it first, I just said it so often it became identified with me, but it never was alone. It was a matter that we needed to be engaged. And all of the sudden we have a president who says that everybody is taking advantage of us, especially foreigners and immigrants, and that were it not for that we could be a great country.

And so I think it does speak to some people that are trying to figure out what went wrong, why they don't have the jobs that they want, and why the educational system has let them down. And I think they really do feel -- and I think we have to listen to this. As I said, not tolerate it, but try to figure out what is really behind it. And I think that's very important.

MR. TALBOTT: Well, those of you who are going to have the excitement of reading this book, you're going to learn a lot of history. I certainly did.
Speaking of Mussolini, I was appalled and fascinated that both Churchill and Gandhi thought he was just the right guy to have, that Italy should have at that time.

MS. ALBRIGHT: Stunning. But I think the thing in trying to get into what really happened is I think we've all grown up with the fact that the Italians have a new government every few months. But what really was happening, at World War I they had been on the side of the allies and they felt that they hadn't gotten anything out of it. They really were disquiet in Italy itself in terms of the haves and the have nots. The part that I think really both blew my mind, that both Mussolini and Hitler had power constitutionally.

MR. TALBOTT: Hindenburg.

MS. ALBRIGHT: Yeah. King Emmanuel asked Mussolini and Hindenburg asked Hitler. The governments that I talk about now, the Hungarians the Poles, the Turks, the Filipinos, Venezuela, all those were elections. And it's only the Russians, the communist systems, that had revolutions. But otherwise these were elected governments that became authoritarian/ -- depending upon how far you go with the fascist analogy.

MR. TALBOTT: One question more from me and then we're going to open it up. You have a club and you're the chair of the club, and you can tell the audience what it's called. And it's the club of her counterparts who were foreign ministers, and it's global, but there are a lot of Europeans in it. What are they saying to you about the Trump phenomenon? Is it going to -- to use your word -- exacerbate the disintegration of the European dream or are they going to see something that says we've got to get together and go back in the right direction?

MS. ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, let me tell you about the origin because -- you know this -- I invented something really modern when I was Secretary, which was the international telephone conference call. (Laughter) And during the war in Kosovo I talked every day to the Quint, the British, French, Germans, Italians, and us, about what was going on on an open line. And there were really questions about the ethnic cleansing that was going on in Kosovo, a variety of things that we needed to deal with.

And very specifically, we all got to be very good friends through this and collegial in every way, but I specifically -- one of the things that happened, one of the people was Joschka Fischer who I think is one of the most remarkable public servants. What we were doing was talking about what was going on and he on the open line said this is what the fascists and the Nazis did. And coming from him, it really was -- or when one of the members there said we should have a bombing pause over Easter, he said why would we pause to honor one religion while we're killing people of another one? And I think kind of the honesty of that conversation and our friendships was a result of it.

And Joschka really remains one of my close friends and is one of -- so this group -- what happened was I get a phone call at the beginning of the Bush administration and Robin Cooke, who was the British foreign secretary, was out of office and he was head of the European socialists and he came out of a meeting in Brussels and he said, Madeline, people are saying terrible things about the U.S., do something. And then I had a phone call from Jozias van Aartsen, the Dutch foreign minister, and he said I've been hearing terrible things, do something. And I thought, I'm out of office.

So I decided, being a groupie, that I would create a group, but I needed an umbrella organization for it, and Aspen is the organization, and it's official name is the Aspen Ministers Forum. Its unofficial name is Madeline and her exes. (Laughter) And so we meet regularly and we did just meet in Versailles because we wanted to talk about nationalism in a place that really personified it in terms of 100 years ago.

And to specifically answer your question, I think that people were unbelievably disturbed about what was going on because it was just at the time that President Trump was touring Europe and yelling at NATO and various aspects of things. And I think that they were saying this was not an America that we know at all. I think the thing that concerned them was how long it was going to take because one the things that really I think is in the process of happening are adjustments in the whatever order we've had to leave us out and not to have us be the leaders of it, but to figure out how to operate without us. And I think that is what disturbed people. We had one of the kind of most vocal times that we've had.

We speak without our national positions and it is really -- and we are very honest with each other, and I think we were very concerned about the migration issue and the scapegoating aspect of it, the weakness of the organizations and where America is. And not only that, but where we think that people need to pay in order to be partners, where it's a transactional aspect of it. And then watching what happened in Helsinki. So I do think that -- by the way, remember when you and I were there with President Clinton -- but I really do think that they are worried. There's no question.

MR. TALBOTT: And somebody from Moscow too.

MS. ALBRIGHT: Yeah, somebody did show up, yes. But we had no takers and -- right -- of people that spoke Russian. Any number of things. But I do think that what does worry me is that there needs to be some organization in Europe and our relationship with it, and they are going to go ahead without us unless we begin to get our act together.

MR. TALBOTT: Are they going to go ahead together? That's the real question.

MS. ALBRIGHT: I think that's hard to tell at the moment, because I hate to say this, but there are a lot of faceless bureaucrats in Brussels. I think we always had a hard time as Americans trying to figure out how to deal with the EU. By the way, when I was ambassador at the UN I would go to an EU ambassador -- there were 5 out of 15 there -- saying I need your help on something, and they ambassador would say, I'm so sorry, I can't help you. The EU does not yet have a common position. And then two days later I go back to the same person, I say can I get help now and the ambassador would say no, the EU does have a common position, which before Brexit made me think that the EU should have the permanent seat.

But it was always very hard to deal with them. And I think now it's very confusing. What we're going back to are bilateral relations. You were talking about being with Federica, I think it's a very hard job at this point. And I actually think that there was a reason for creating the EU, was to obviate or mitigate whatever nationalist tendencies had created World War II.

And, by the way, one of the reasons I wrote the book is my own experience. As I said, I was born in 1937, two years before the Nazis marched into Czechoslovakia. And one of the lessons for me that I grew up with, this was in the Munich Agreement, which will also be celebrating an anniversary at the end of September, was the British and French making an agreement with the Germans and Italians over the head of the Czechoslovaks and the U.S. was not there. And then as a
child, that I spent the war in England during the blitz, everything changed when the Americans came. And that's, by the way, General, when I fell in love with Americans in uniform. (Laughter) And you and see it as a little girl, I mean there was just no question.

Then as a result of World War II there was an agreement made between the Allies and the Soviets to "liberate" the country I was born in. And the U.S. again was not able to do -- so, for me, the role of the United States, without being the policeman for the world, is absolutely essential. And that's what I don't see, and I hate to see some kind of order developed with the United States as the victim on the outside.

MR. TALBOTT: And you're going to be very, very helpful on that.

MS. ALBRIGHT: Yeah.
MR. TALBOTT: Let's open it up. Please keep questions questions and very short. We have only about 12 minutes or something.

MS. ALBRIGHT: You're going to call on them?

SPEAKER: Thank you very much for this great panel. You mentioned Kosovo. So I'm from Kosovo. I'm a visiting scholar here at Georgetown. In my research I always consider -- and I wrote about how Kosovo and Balkans was a success story for America. Of course there's some ups and downs. But what do you think, Secretary, about what is going on with negotiations now between Serbia and Kosovo and all this land swap and this crazy idea?
Thank you.

 

MS. ALBRIGHT: You're not going to believe -- I was listening to right wing radio some of the time, but as I pulled up I started listening to public radio and what has happened, there was supposed to be a meeting between Vucic and Hashim Thaçi and the Serbs cancelled the meeting. And I do think that one of the issues is whether it's a land swap for -- Kosovo was part of Serbia in terms of a land swap to give some of the land to the Serbs to move the border so that Serbia would actually recognize Kosovo.

I think that I have mixed feelings about it if you want to know, which is that I don't happen to believe in homogeneous populations. I do think the multi ethnic populations are the ones that we need. And I have been back to Kosovo a number of times and I have said to the Kosovars that they can't treat the Serbs the way the Serbs treated them. And that was very important. And I spoke to the parliament there about that. So I don't know whether a land swap is the right idea, but it was very strange that
all of the sudden, because Vucic and Hashim had begun to agree on this, they also were saying that there was going to be on additional piece, and I don't know whether that's the reason that it was cancelled. But I think it is a very delicate question in terms of generally land swaps in terms of creating homogeneous populations. By the way, they like me in Kosovo. (Laughter)
And there is a whole generation of little girls whose first name is Madeline. So, yeah, yeah.

 

SPEAKER: And it was an honor for me in 2008 to meet you with a group of students.

MR. TALBOTT: Yes, right there.

SPEAKER: I just have a general question and I think it's very important.

MR. TALBOTT: I think if you stand up and hold the mic a little closer to
your mouth.

SPEAKER: I think diplomacy needs a chance for the future, for future generations. I just wanted to hear your take on it because the United States is being considered a beacon where other countries look up to for their own actions and their own roles on the planet. And I feel we need to work together not against each other because, like you said before, you divide and conquer. So my question is, for the future, how do you see the role of diplomacy with the actual United States government?

MS. ALBRIGHT: I think it is the essential took, but at the moment I think
-- diplomats, by the way, basically operate on the basis of what national security policy is. There is a process whereby it is decided what the role -- this is not true just for the United States. I mean diplomats are not kind of people that are out there making things up, but they are the eyes and ears of their own government and are there in order to represent the government and to have discussions with the host country. And I think that at the moment there is confusion about where the United States is going.

Partially it is based on documents, and the Trump Administration did put out a national security strategy probably faster than any other. What they have done is made clear that they see that terrorism is no longer the major threat, that China and Russia are, and therefore that affects how the diplomats in those countries behave. I happen to think that what is very interesting is that our ambassador to China was probably the right choice.

I met with Xi Jinping when he came to the United States as Vice President and he talked about the time that he had spent in Iowa and how much he liked it. So Trump names the guy that was the Governor of Iowa to be ambassador, which I think is very smart. The problem is that I think it's unclear what the policy is, whether we're fighting with the Chinese over tariffs in the South China Sea or whether we need them to help us on Korea. There are all these kinds of things that as a diplomat you kind of need to know what you're supposed to do. Even truer as far as Russia is concerned.

And so I do think we need people that are trained in diplomacy. And then the truth about diplomacy is it is about the art of compromise. You have to put yourself into the other country's shoes in order to get some kind of agreement on things. And the things you can't compromise on are the ones that you ultimately use a different tool for. But diplomacy is the bread and butter aspect of relationships between countries.

MR. TALBOTT: Yes, right here; the lady.

 

SPEAKER: Madam Albright, it's a pleasure to be here and hear your comments. I'm an Afghan-American journalist. From age nine I watched Afghanistan fall apart. My father also was a diplomat and suffered the tactics of the communist regime. So it really is an honor to be here and to hear your comments.

If you would please tell us what do you -- if you could advise the Trump Administration what advice do you have for the Administration in terms of diplomacy with Afghanistan, diplomacy with Turkey at this juncture? Why is the exchange of religious figureheads being allowed to become sort of the pivot in the diplomacy between Turkey and the United States? And how can the United States change that in a positive direction?
Thank you.

 

MS. ALBRIGHT: Okay. Let me just say -- and Strobe I think can testify to this -- is I was a Turkophile. In fact, what happened was I was in the Carter Administration, I was there when we lifted the Turkish embargo. And I spent a lot of time learning about Turkey and going to Turkey. I thought that Turkey should be a member of the EU. The Europeans told me to mind my own business. But I really do think there was a problem about constantly moving the goalposts in terms of how Turkey should behave in order to be a member of the EU. They have been a very staunch NATO ally, whether it was in Korea, various places, a really remarkable NATO ally. What I think is interesting, and this goes a lot to the democracy question in itself, is that as much as I liked going to Turkey, it still was run by some elitists, people who lived on the other side of the Bosporus in the big houses, or the military. And Erdoğan won the election fair and square because the AKP really did do constituency services. And it was fascinating to be in Turkey at the time as the economy was really moving forward.

I do think that tragedy is that power goes to people's heads. And Erdoğan is not the same person, I don't think, at all. And the kinds of things that he is doing now are very damaging in terms of relationships in the Middle East and as a NATO ally and all of those things. I think that there is an internal religious fight in Turkey between the Gulenists and the AKP people and it is being played out, frankly, in a crazy way in terms of blaming Gulenists for everything. I think the pastor is symbolic in some ways, but it is also very typical of the kind of thing -- Erdoğan is arresting journalists. And then being an autocrat in every single way. He is on my list of leaders that I talk about.

Again, the news today in terms of what's happening in Syria and the role of the Turks and the Kurds and everything, I've never seen anything so complicated. And we have no ambassador there and it is unclear what our policy is. And it's pretty tough to see a NATO ally buying Russian arms. At the same time, the whole aspect of NATO in terms of intelligence sharing and various things. So I think it is a truly difficult situation that would require a very consistent and smart policy from the United States and I don't know where it's coming from at the moment.

Not a very good answer, but it truly is an unbelievably complicated thing. And this pastor has become a symbol of a number of other aspects of it.

MR. TALBOTT: All of your answers have been terrific and I wish we could keep going. But some of you are going to get books and Secretary will inscribe something in that, so we're going to have a little time for that. But I know that there's one question that must come up, and that is tell us about your pin. (Laughter)

MS. ALBRIGHT: I don't know whether people know why the pins ever came up as a story. It's all that I was UN -- I like jewelry and I was at the UN at the end of the Gulf War and the cease fire was translated into a series of sanctions resolutions. And it was my job, I was an instructor to the ambassador to make sure the sanctions stayed on. So I said something terrible about Saddam Hussein every day, which he deserved. He had invaded Kuwait. So all the sudden there was a poem in the papers in Baghdad that compared me to many things, but among them an unparalleled serpent. And so I had a snake pin and I started wearing it whenever we talked about Iraq. (Laughter)

And so when I went out and talked to the press, they said why are you wearing that snake pin and I said because Saddam Hussein compared me to an unparalleled serpent. And then I thought well this is fun. I lived in New York and I decided to go out and buy a lot of costume jewelry to depict whatever I thought we were going to do on any given day. And so on good says I wore flowers and butterflies and balloons and on bad days I wore a lot of carnivorous animals. (Laughter) And other ambassadors kind of caught on and they said what are we doing today, and I say read my pins, which is how it all started.
But you'll appreciate this one, Strobe. What happened was that, remember the Russians were bugging the State Department when --

MR. TALBOTT: Oh, yeah.

 

MS. ALBRIGHT: Yes. So we finally found the guy who was sitting outside, we did what diplomats do, which is do a demarche and complain to Moscow. But the next time I met with Yevgeny Primakov, the foreign minister, I wore this huge bug and he knew exactly what I was doing. So today my pin is Mercury the messenger because I do think that there's some people who think my book is alarmist. It's supposed to be because it is a warning. And the feather plucking and the various things that are going on. And I think we, in order -- I have a paradoxical statement, which is I believe in the fragility of democracy and the resiliency of democracy.

It requires a to-do list, and my to-do list is the following, if I may. One is that we have to tell it like it is. I'm asked whether Trump is a fascist. I don't think he is. I think he's the most undemocratic president in modern American history because he doesn't believe in the institutional structure, he is trying to fix the judiciary, he calls the press the enemy of the people. So we need to do something about that. I believe that people that can should run for office and those of us that aren't need to support them. I think on my to-do list is to talk to the people with whom I disagree.

And then every single speech or book has a quote from Robert Frost. So the one that I like is, the older I get the younger are my teachers. And what is interesting are the young people now in our country that are out there marching, they don't want to go to school with flak jackets, they want to be able to study. And I think we need to support the young people.

 

MR. TALBOTT: Before I say a thank you to Madeline, I want to give you
a logistical point, and that is those of you who are going to go to the back of the room and to get books, please go down this line and then she will come around and inscribe them for you. Madeline, all I can say is you're a lot more than a messenger, you're a leader, and you're a very, very good friend.

MS. ALBRIGHT: But it took me a long time to find my voice, and I'm sure not going to shut up. (Laughter) Thank you. (Applause)